Rim damage and spare tire ordeal

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Old 04-16-2024, 07:42 PM
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Rim damage and spare tire ordeal

Bummer! Am visiting some friends and family about 100 miles away from home. Today, suddenly head a loud noise from front break. I stopped the car but couldn't spot anything. The vehicle was barely moving. With lots of difficulty drove it another mile where it totally stuck. Got a flat tire and when I removed the front wheel saw one of the caliper mounting bolts was missing. Thus the whole caliper was out and was damaging the interior of the rim causing several cracks on the interior wall and thus flat tire.

Was able to but a caliper bolt from a local part store and using the spare tire managed to reach the relative house. Not sure whether I can drive like 45 MPH for 100 miles to reach home with this spare tire. This is certainly bigger than those donut size spares but I doubt I can cover 100 miles on it. Any tip or experience? Thanks.





Old 04-16-2024, 07:50 PM
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The main thing is that the wheel is mounted on the rear axle, and in good weather and a smooth road you can drive it for 60mph without any problems. Typically these spare tires last up to 5k miles.

Last edited by altair47; 04-16-2024 at 08:02 PM.
Old 04-16-2024, 07:58 PM
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Typically there is a 50-50 rule pn them, where you should not go more than 50 miles at 50 mph or higher. Sometimes stretching it out to around 70 miles of travel may be fine, but beyond that it's a crapshoot. It's up to you, but if you have AAA I would definitely drive 50-70 miles and get it towed to your home from there.
Old 04-16-2024, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by altair47
The main thing is that the wheel is mounted on the rear axle, and in good weather and a smooth road you can drive it for 60mph without any problems. Typically these spare tires last up to 5k miles.
That 5K is the total life span of the tire perhaps. But not sure if one can drive on them more than 70 miles at a time.
Old 04-16-2024, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex Medeiros
Typically there is a 50-50 rule pn them, where you should not go more than 50 miles at 50 mph or higher. Sometimes stretching it out to around 70 miles of travel may be fine, but beyond that it's a crapshoot. It's up to you, but if you have AAA I would definitely drive 50-70 miles and get it towed to your home from there.
No I don't have AAA. I am currently in Toronto and got to go back to Buffalo. So I'm stuck kind of unless that I take a chance and drive it relatively slowly. If I'm lucky it endures the trip and if I'm not I can camp in the middle of the road I guess.
Old 04-16-2024, 10:19 PM
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If the original rim is unrepairable then you'll have to buy a new one anyways, and assuming you want it to match it would be OEM.

Maybe call an Acura Toronto dealer and ask them to put on a new rim/tire. My dealer only charges 15 minutes labor to mount/balance a tire.

If they don't have the rim in stock maybe drive your donut to them and ask for a loaner while you're with the family, then pick up your car before the drive home. They should be able to get any rim within 24 hours.
Old 04-16-2024, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mvl
If the original rim is unrepairable then you'll have to buy a new one anyways, and assuming you want it to match it would be OEM.
Maybe call an Acura Toronto dealer and ask them to put on a new rim/tire. My dealer only charges 15 minutes labor to mount/balance a tire.
If they don't have the rim in stock maybe drive your donut to them and ask for a loaner while you're with the family, then pick up your car before the drive home. They should be able to get any rim within 24 hours.
I'm not sure if the alloy rims can be repaired. May be by welding but I don't have access to those shops here. So I have decided to order a new OEM rim which is about $175.
The Acura in Toronto is asking more than $500 for the rim and tire change which is unreasonable. One option is to take the train back home and bring the new rim with my wife's car back to Toronto.
Yes it's a big hassle but I'm running out of options here.

Old 04-16-2024, 10:39 PM
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Train and/or bus (if cheaper) is probably the most cost effective. A drive on a donut in theory would wear out two donut tires (if you find a tire shop to swap halfway) or at least one tire if you risk it, and either of those sounds more expensive than a train ticket and gas.

How much is a new tire when added to the OEM rim? Tires can be pricey, and when comparing that combined cost plus the train ticket, it may be close enough to $500 anyways (assuming that quote included a new tire). If your old tire is good you could just save it until another tire wears out.

Last edited by mvl; 04-16-2024 at 10:43 PM.
Old 04-16-2024, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mvl
Train and/or bus (if cheaper) is probably the most cost effective. A drive on a donut in theory would wear out two donut tires (if you find a tire shop to swap halfway) or at least one tire if you risk it, and either of those sounds more expensive than a train ticket and gas.
How much is a new tire when added to the OEM rim? Tires can be pricey, and when comparing that combined cost plus the train ticket, it may be close enough to $500 anyways (assuming that quote included a new tire). If your old tire is good you could just save it until another tire wears out.
Agree. I am almost convinced not to drive the 100 miles distance with the spare. Not worth the risk. I think I will take the train back to pick up the new rim.
It's a PITA but things happen.
Old 04-17-2024, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mvl
Train and/or bus (if cheaper) is probably the most cost effective. A drive on a donut in theory would wear out two donut tires (if you find a tire shop to swap halfway) or at least one tire if you risk it, and either of those sounds more expensive than a train ticket and gas.How much is a new tire when added to the OEM rim? Tires can be pricey, and when comparing that combined cost plus the train ticket, it may be close enough to $500 anyways (assuming that quote included a new tire). If your old tire is good you could just save it until another tire wears out.
It's interesting that I can't find anything about spare tire in the owner's manual that says drive only up to 70 miles. It says drive up to 50 MPH but doesn't mention anything about the distance.
Old 04-17-2024, 09:19 AM
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Maybe it's time you stop doing your own maintenance / repairs? Leaving off or failing to tighten a caliper bolt is a pretty big safety boo-boo. And if I were you...I would check the caliper bolts and caliper bracket bolts at the other 3 corners ASAP!

With regard to the spare. The 50mph / 70 miles is simply a standard disclaimer. Same / similar disclaimers apply to all kinds of things. What do you think folks out west do when they have a flat and are hours away from anything / anywhere? That spare is GTG...just make sure it is inflated to its proper 60psi.

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Old 04-17-2024, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jjrphs
Maybe it's time you stop doing your own maintenance / repairs? Leaving off or failing to tighten a caliper bolt is a pretty big safety boo-boo. And if I were you...I would check the caliper bolts and caliper bracket bolts at the other 3 corners ASAP!
What made you believe I had not torqued the bolts to the spec? The bolt loosening has been to an unknown condition not my failing to tighten it. Yes I had applied a little grease on the threads to prevent rust and seizure. If that has been the cause of it who knows but then why all other bolts are still tight.
Old 04-17-2024, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by emry
What made you believe I had not torqued the bolts to the spec?
Well, the fact that the odds of a properly torqued caliper bolt undoing itself without any help are lottery-type odds remote. You asked the question yourself...why are the others still tight? It's because you actually tightened them...dummy!!!

That and the fact that "turning lemonade into lemons" is not foreign to you. Remember how you effed up the water pump on your timing belt swap? The same kind of inattention as not tightening a bolt, required a visit from the mobile mechanic on that botched timing belt / water pump job. You know, a job (TB swap) you'd claimed you'd performed on all your vehicles for the past 30 years?...only to later admit, that the botched job was actually your 1st TB swap. A man's gotta know his own limitations.
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Old 04-17-2024, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jjrphs
Well, the fact that the odds of a properly torqued caliper bolt undoing itself without any help are lottery-type odds remote. You asked the question yourself...why are the others still tight? It's because you actually tightened them...dummy!!!

That and the fact that "turning lemonade into lemons" is not foreign to you. Remember how you effed up the water pump on your timing belt swap? The same kind of inattention as not tightening a bolt, required a visit from the mobile mechanic on that botched timing belt / water pump job. You know, a job (TB swap) you'd claimed you'd performed on all your vehicles for the past 30 years?...only to later admit, that the botched job was actually your 1st TB swap. A man's gotta know his own limitations.
Old 04-17-2024, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by emry
What made you believe I had not torqued the bolts to the spec? The bolt loosening has been to an unknown condition not my failing to tighten it. Yes I had applied a little grease on the threads to prevent rust and seizure. If that has been the cause of it who knows but then why all other bolts are still tight.
Although its controversial, the general recommendation is to use caliper bolts “dry”, not lubricated. When I did my 2013 Accord, I purchased some new bolts and they came with a pre-applied thread locker patch. It was a few years ago, but the patch was blue as I recall.
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Old 04-17-2024, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by John from PA
Although its controversial, the general recommendation is to use caliper bolts “dry”, not lubricated.
I don't think lubing had anything to do with the OP's losing that caliper bolt. The statistics against it "happening all by itself" (lubed or not) are monumental. He simply failed to tighten that bolt, whether he chooses to acknowledge it or not.
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Old 04-17-2024, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by John from PA
Although its controversial, the general recommendation is to use caliper bolts “dry”, not lubricated. When I did my 2013 Accord, I purchased some new bolts and they came with a pre-applied thread locker patch. It was a few years ago, but the patch was blue as I recall.
Yes you may be right on that. I bought new bolt and that came with blue locktite on it.
Old 04-17-2024, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jjrphs
I don't think lubing had anything to do with the OP's losing that caliper bolt. The statistics against it "happening all by itself" (lubed or not) are monumental.
Not true. Applying too much grease (like I did) on the bolt's threads and extreme wheel vibrations could lead to the bolt to come loose. The grease prevents the threads stick tight to the surface.

Originally Posted by jjrphs
He simply failed to tighten that bolt, whether he chooses to acknowledge it or not.
Seems I'm scared or ashamed of it in front of some people to admit it. You know better since you were there witnessing when I tighten it with the torque wrench.
Old 04-17-2024, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jjrphs
I don't think lubing had anything to do with the OP's losing that caliper bolt. The statistics against it "happening all by itself" (lubed or not) are monumental. He simply failed to tighten that bolt, whether he chooses to acknowledge it or not.

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Old 04-17-2024, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by emry
One should ask this guy why 3x drain/fill? Isn't that because to get most of the dirty old ATF out of the system? And that is not better achieved by a flush?
Power flushing is tough on any AT generally, and potentially damaging to a Honda / Acura transmission specifically. Shops that do it, do so because it's a low-time / high profit service. Doing a 3x drain / fill turns over ~90% of the fluid. It's an AT friendly way to turn over almost all of the fluid. Don't believe what I'm saying? Then just do a simple Google...you'll be reading for hours.

Originally Posted by emry
If it's recommended at 60K miles then why do you change it at 50K? And if changing ATF at a lower interval is a good practice to keep the tranny healthy what is wrong changing it at 35K miles if someone can afford the cost?
What was hyperbolic about your statement was your matter of fact implication that the fluid "has to changed every 35K miles" or if you don't it "will result to serious transmission gear wear out." Like most things you post on this forum...it is simply not true. You want to service your AT every 5k miles? It matters not to me...but if you come here and make that recommendation, you'll be called out on it.

Originally Posted by emry
Apparently you consider yourself as a authoritative entity to prescribe whatever you do to others.
Authority? No. Experienced? Yes...to the tune of >1 million miles using MaxLife ATF in Honda / Acura transmissions. I'm not forcing anyone to use MaxLife ATF...just telling the FACTS of my experience. Doesn't hurt my feelings one bit if you or anyone else for that matter, choose not to use it.
I'm not the guy who thought his RDX transmission has planetary gear sets -or- recommend running an AT dry as the best way to drain it...as you've posted in the past.

Originally Posted by emry
You simply must learn that there is a difference between a personal opinion and a fact.
My personal experience is a FACT...not an opinion. And that experience is >1 million miles using MaxLife ATF in Honda / Acura transmissions. Your OPINION is that MaxLife ATF is not good for Honda / Acura transmissions. Another FACT...you have not used MaxLife ATF in a Honda / Acura transmission.

Originally Posted by emry
You, me and all others are entitles to our opinions here but coming and saying that you have the monopoly on the truth is one of those hyperboles!
Not only am I entitled to my opinion, I'm entitled to expressing the TRUTH of my experience. That TRUTH is >1 million miles of positive experience with MaxLife ATF.

Your truth on the other hand, seems to be a moving target and situational to whatever post you happen to be responding to at the time...just like you're now added a time frame on your forgetting to tighten that caliper bolt. I chronicled some of your "tall tales" here...see here Post #45 Emry's Zingers - Post #45

Bottom line...you have no credibility and it's truly laughable that you'd question the credibility of anyone else here, given your history.
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Old 04-17-2024, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jjrphs
Then just do a simple Google
Yeah have heard that many times before. Just throw an incorrect blanket claim and ask others to spend time to prove it's wrong. Thus you as the claimant don't have do prove your case. It is others that have to do it for you.

Originally Posted by jjrphs
What was hyperbolic about your statement was your matter of fact implication that the fluid "has to changed every 35K miles" or if you don't it "will result to serious transmission gear wear out." Like most things you post on this forum...it is simply not true. You want to service your AT every 5k miles? It matters not to me...but if you come here and make that recommendation, you'll be called out on it.
The change interval for ATF is between 30K and 60K miles depending on many conditions and factors. If one do towing or uphill driving or loads the vehicle heavily then changing ATF at around 35K is way more beneficial due to the extreme heat that tranny endures. In normal driving condition that Acura assumes it can be changed indeed at 60K miles.

Originally Posted by jjrphs
Authority? No. Experienced? Yes...to the tune of >1 million miles using MaxLife ATF in Honda / Acura transmissions. I'm not forcing anyone to use MaxLife ATF...just telling the FACTS of my experience. Doesn't hurt my feelings one bit if you or anyone else for that matter, choose not to use it. I'm not the guy who thought his RDX transmission has planetary gear sets -or- recommend running an AT dry as the best way to drain it...as you've posted in the past.
Here's another of your FACT masterpieces:



I guess the rest of your so-called experience are of the same nature. In other words, Acura is making an inferior ATF in its cars and doesn't know MaxLife is better.

Originally Posted by jjrphs
My personal experience is a FACT...not an opinion. And that experience is >1 million miles using MaxLife ATF in Honda / Acura transmissions. Your OPINION is that MaxLife ATF is not good for Honda / Acura transmissions. Another FACT...you have not used MaxLife ATF in a Honda / Acura transmission.
Not only am I entitled to my opinion, I'm entitled to expressing the TRUTH of my experience. That TRUTH is >1 million miles of positive experience with MaxLife ATF.
What you are claiming has nothing to do with the truth. If you have driven 1 million mile on MaxLife (not verifiable of course!) then guess what, tens of thousands of other people have driven tens of millions of miles on DW1 with their Acura with no issues whatsoever. In both the number of miles driven and number of people using DW1, your so-called experience doesn't even count. Yet you consider yourself an authority to prescribe everyone to use MxLife instead of DW1.

Originally Posted by jjrphs
Bottom line...you have no credibility and it's truly laughable that you'd question the credibility of anyone else here, given your history.
Let the laugh on others. Speak on your own behalf. No one invited you to highjack my or other thread with all these false statements.

Old 04-18-2024, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by emry
Yeah have heard that many times before. Just throw an incorrect blanket claim and ask others to spend time to prove it's wrong. Thus you as the claimant don't have do prove your case. It is others that have to do it for you.
Too lazy to type a few words and click your mouse?...OK, fine. 8 words (is it ok to power flush a honda transmission) and a mouse click yielded this at the top of the page (in bold) and hours of reading below...Honda actually recommends against flushing their transmissions, and they have for years.

Originally Posted by emry
The change interval for ATF is between 30K and 60K miles depending on many conditions and factors. If one do towing or uphill driving or loads the vehicle heavily then changing ATF at around 35K is way more beneficial due to the extreme heat that tranny endures. In normal driving condition that Acura assumes it can be changed indeed at 60K miles.
So in other words, when you wrote "HAS to changed every 35K miles" or if you don't it "WILL result to serious transmission gear wear out," you were mis-representing the truth...i.e. lying. Pro tip...if you don't post a bunch of mis-truths and lies in the 1st place, you don't have to back track.

Originally Posted by emry
Here's another of your FACT masterpieces:
I guess the rest of your so-called experience are of the same nature. In other words, Acura is making an inferior ATF in its cars and doesn't know MaxLife is better.
Yep. I firmly believe that Valvoline MaxLife Synthetic ATF is superior to DW-1 (& Z1 for that matter) for performance and longevity in Honda / Acura transmissions. I have actual miles (>1 million) in my personal fleet that back up this belief...actual / factual / truthful mileage and data.
You on the other hand have never used MaxLife ATF in a Honda / Acura transmission? You have no actual experience (facts) to back your position. Correct?

Originally Posted by emry
What you are claiming has nothing to do with the truth..
Really? I guess I shouldn't be surprised that someone who avoids the truth, wouldn't know what truth was when it "slaps him in the face." How about a comment on this? Emry's Zingers - Post #45

Dude, you really come off as someone's illiterate, drunk, uncle with all the hyperbole, fanciful claims and just flat-out lying.
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Old 04-18-2024, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jjrphs
Too lazy to type a few words and click your mouse?...OK, fine. 8 words (is it ok to power flush a honda transmission) and a mouse click yielded this at the top of the page (in bold) and hours of reading below...Honda actually recommends against flushing their transmissions, and they have for years.
Yes I did and this is what I got:



This is yet another proof of your BS spreading on this forum and God knows where else. You cannot come up with one single scientific or reasonable proof for all your bogus claims and have the nerve to come here and repeat them.

Originally Posted by jjrphs
Yep. I firmly believe that Valvoline MaxLife Synthetic ATF is superior to DW-1 (& Z1 for that matter) for performance and longevity in Honda / Acura transmissions. I have actual miles (>1 million) in my personal fleet that back up this belief...actual / factual / truthful mileage and data.
Who cares about your beliefs? Your beliefs could very well be false like your other claims. Yes the 1-milllion mile man thinks whatever he uses is superior to all that research Honda has done to produce the DW1 for its vehicle. This is the level of your intellect.

Originally Posted by jjrphs
You on the other hand have never used MaxLife ATF in a Honda / Acura transmission? You have no actual experience (facts) to back your position. Correct?
Why would I use MaxLife? Just because you prescribing it? I have used DW1 for years with no issues and never heard anyone complaining about it either.
Thus if any random guy pops up and say go use XYZ brand ATF because I believe it is superior to DW1 because I have driven million miles on it I have to jump on it?

Originally Posted by jjrphs
Dude, you really come off as someone's illiterate, drunk, uncle with all the hyperbole, fanciful claims and just flat-out lying.
Still way better than a bozo low-IQ like you to come up with all that 1-million mile crap.

The moment you wrote below put 60 psi in the spare and drive whatever miles on it since others do it I knew who I am dealing with.

You are dishonorably expelled and dismissed from my thread. Never want to hear anything from you and those two other in your gang around here. Keep your advises for yourself.

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Old 04-18-2024, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by emry
You are dishonorably expelled and dismissed from my thread. Never want to hear anything from you and those two other in your gang around here. Keep your advises for yourself.
There you go again...Illiterate, Drunk, Crazy Uncle speak.

Hey, how about responding to this? Emry's Lies - Post #45
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Old 04-18-2024, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jjrphs
There you go again...Illiterate, Drunk, Crazy Uncle speak.

Hey, how about responding to this? Emry's Lies - Post #45
This is your response the 1-million-mile pig. Go enjoy the dirt somewhere else.




Old 04-19-2024, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by emry
This is your response the 1-million-mile pig. Go enjoy the dirt somewhere else.
You may attempt to accuse the accuser of your own stupidity. You can even pull a snarky quote off the internet, but it'll never hide your BS, getting caught in multiple lies or your profound incompetence.

Emry's Lies - Post #45
Old 04-19-2024, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jjrphs
I don't think lubing had anything to do with the OP's losing that caliper bolt. The statistics against it "happening all by itself" (lubed or not) are monumental. He simply failed to tighten that bolt, whether he chooses to acknowledge it or not.
I’m not saying that lubricant on the bolt had anything to do with the loss of the bolt, just that it isn’t recommended. If you lube a bolt and use the “dry” torque, then the bolt may be stretched beyond its yield point and fail.
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Old 04-20-2024, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by emry
Yes I did and this is what I got:



This is yet another proof of your BS spreading on this forum and God knows where else. You cannot come up with one single scientific or reasonable proof for all your bogus claims and have the nerve to come here and repeat them.
Is there something I'm missing... and my reading comprehension that bad? The post you linked literally says "Honda actually recommends against flushing transmissions"... wtf are you arguing here?

Originally Posted by emry
Who cares about your beliefs? Your beliefs could very well be false like your other claims. Yes the 1-milllion mile man thinks whatever he uses is superior to all that research Honda has done to produce the DW1 for its vehicle. This is the level of your intellect.
You mean like your belief that spark plugs only last 50K miles and need to be replaced after that?


Originally Posted by emry
Why would I use MaxLife? Just because you prescribing it? I have used DW1 for years with no issues and never heard anyone complaining about it either.
Thus if any random guy pops up and say go use XYZ brand ATF because I believe it is superior to DW1 because I have driven million miles on it I have to jump on it?
Why would I replace my spark plugs prematurelyu? Just because you prescribing it? I have used replaced my spark plugs at 100K+ for years with no issues and never heard anyone complaining about it either.
Thus if any random guy pops up and say go replace my spark plugs because I believe it is superior to do so, I have to jump on it?

See I can do this too


Originally Posted by emry
Still way better than a bozo low-IQ like you to come up with all that 1-million mile crap.
Think it's time to look in the mirror buddy.. talk about pot and kettle...


Originally Posted by emry

You are dishonorably expelled and dismissed from my thread. Never want to hear anything from you and those two other in your gang around here. Keep your advises for yourself.
Glad you're not in a position of any power to do this .. but keep on keeping on... your incoherent blabbering is entertaining... sort of..
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Old 04-20-2024, 05:47 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by thoiboi
Is there something I'm missing... and my reading comprehension that bad? The post you linked literally says "Honda actually recommends against flushing transmissions"... wtf are you arguing here?
You mean like your belief that spark plugs only last 50K miles and need to be replaced after that?
Why would I replace my spark plugs prematurelyu? Just because you prescribing it? I have used replaced my spark plugs at 100K+ for years with no issues and never heard anyone complaining about it either.
Thus if any random guy pops up and say go replace my spark plugs because I believe it is superior to do so, I have to jump on it?
See I can do this too
Think it's time to look in the mirror buddy.. talk about pot and kettle...
Glad you're not in a position of any power to do this .. but keep on keeping on... your incoherent blabbering is entertaining... sort of..
Be careful thoiboi, otherwise he will be offended and say that the moderator should ban you.
Old 04-21-2024, 09:15 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by altair47
Be careful thoiboi, otherwise he will be offended and say that the moderator should ban you.

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Old 04-24-2024, 08:16 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by altair47
The main thing is that the wheel is mounted on the rear axle, and in good weather and a smooth road you can drive it for 60mph without any problems. Typically these spare tires last up to 5k miles.
Are you saying the donut spare can only be used at a rear position?
Old Yesterday, 08:01 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by John from PA
Are you saying the donut spare can only be used at a rear position?
Only on some cars, on RDX it can be installed at a front, but for stable steering and safe driving(especially at high speeds and on wet roads) the donut should not be on the front wheels.
Old Today, 09:33 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by John from PA
Are you saying the donut spare can only be used at a rear position?
Originally Posted by altair47
Only on some cars, on RDX it can be installed at a front, but for stable steering and safe driving(especially at high speeds and on wet roads) the donut should not be on the front wheels.
My opinion is that as long as the spare has the same rolling circumference, it's "ok" for use on a drive wheel position of the vehicle, barring any manufacturer recommendation to the contrary.

Having said that, it's intuitive (at least to me) to place the spare on the rear when possible (especially if I were going to be pushing the limits of the manufacturer's recommendation of speed / distance for said spare). Doing so plays into the favor of the spare, in terms of vehicle weight distribution, less or no tractive force and no turning forces.

I've known more than one person (employees) in my time who've driven on their spare literally for 2-3 months without issue. I thought it was a matter of them not having enough money to replace the tire and thus I offered to buy them a new tire, thinking it was a matter of time that the spare would let them down. Nope, both had the money...they were just too d*mn lazy to get to the tire store pronto for replacement. Those doughnuts are much tougher than the manufacturer's disclaimers would seem to indicate.


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