XLR8R

For me at least, the concept of automotive brand loyalty, came from the WWII generation. I would hear my father, and the neighborhood fathers, refer to someone as a "Chevy man" or a "Ford man" as if the the car defined their masculine identity.

Of course, they only had the big three domestics (and a few niche makers like Studebaker). The sales and ownership experience was equally all about average, and it was mostly a horsepower war.

When the Japanese began their relentless assault on quality, my dad reacted as if purchasing an Asian import was the moral equivalent of strafing Ford Island, and I suppose he has a point. Unfortuately, the big three domestics spent decades relying on just this sentiment...and the world passed them by.

Several years ago I read the book Duty: A Father, His Son, and the Man Who Won the War, the tribute to Gen Paul Tibbets, by Bob Greene. (Gen Tibbets commanded the Enola Gay, which dropped the first Atomic bomb on Hiroshima, but every American school-kid knows that....right?) More on this in a moment.

While growing up with my dad's American cars, I witnessed horrendous quality issues in brand new vehicles -- the AMC Concorde with inoperative brake lights comes to mind -- I noticed it while playing in the car on the first night. Over the years I have tolerated annoying problems with my own GMs, Fords and Chryslers. I was aware of Japan's reputation for quality, but my upbringing, and a sense that the reviewers must be somehow biased, prevented me from buying from the people who brought us Dec 7, 1941.

Now back to the book.....when Greene first meets Gen Tibbets, he is somewhat stunned to learn -- that the man who dropped The Bomb -- drives a Honda Accord. Tibbets' response to the obvious question, is remarkable in that it is so unremarkable; he spends wisely, and he bought a Honda for quality and value.

This comment -- from my dad's generation -- and the man who saved millions of American and Japanese lives, finally convinced me to evaluate Japanese cars on their merit.

MMike1981

great post. my family was (and still somewhat IS) among this line of thought. If you arent buying "american" you aren't showing support. My grandfather (now dec.), was in the war, etc, and only bought Cadillac. ONLY. until...he bought a Toyota Avalon, because, Toyota (who embraced what America wanted in a large car when the Avalon came out) built a product that seemed all-around american and he called it the best piece of machinery he had owned. They put a car out with a bench seat in the front, a shift on the wheel, and i guess for whatever the reasons those were things that my gfather valued (like old-school american 6 passenger cars) It would be the first ( and last) car he had, but at such an old age, i thought it was astonishing in seeing the change in opinion and suddenly foreign cars werent the enemy

cool post.

LuvMyTSX

My parents have been loyal American car buyers as well. In fact, I was the first in our family to purchase a non-American car when I got my TSX back in 2005. Now my sister has a Corolla, and my dad was looking at Accords this fall when he thought their '98 Chrysler Cirrus was done for. Things change

JMJ3rd

I know the feelings that have been written about. I, at one time, felt them concerning buying "American".
Feelings change...

waterlou

And since a good majority of the "Japanese" imports (and even European for that matter) are actually built here, I would say that they are just as American then the "Big 3"!

lumpulus

Excellent topic!

I think the main reason the Big 3 stayed the Big 3 without faltering much until recently was because they more than anyone pushed the Patriotic stuff.

I got my License in 1976, and I had seven cars to choose from in my family to drive, all American. Back then, Japanese cars were made from "recycled beer cans" according to my dad and granpa, who were in the Korean and WWII respectively. It was understood without ever saying anything that no J@p car would ever be in our driveway.

Not so at my friend's houses....one had a Civic, one a Datsun B210, and one a Subaru station wagon(FWD only),,,you could not kill those cars, and believe me, we tried.

When I could buy my own car, I bought Japanese, and have never regretted it.

Does that make me any less patriotic than a guy in an F250 with a gun rack? HELL NO

BTW..."Bocks Car" dropped the bomb on Nagasaki, and no I didn't look that up.

mau108

eggzackly what I was gonna say.

tftimm

A great quote:
"I don't buy American, I buy the American way, the best quality product for the lowest price."

lumpulus

I started buying Acuras because too many Hondas were starting to get built in Ohio. Every car I've purchased since 84 till now has been built in Japan by Japanese workers, and trust me, it makes a difference.

mau108

on the topic of trucks lol, there was a post on the preludeclub of an engineer who's always on sites, sees company trucks and they were either fords or dodges, this year the owners replaced them with honda ridgelines and no complaints.

dalieu

Not sure which Acura you drive, but some of them are built in Ohio too. Currently, the TL and RDX are assembled in Ohio. I believe the TSX and RL are assembled in Japan and the MDX in Canada.

MMike1981

last jap honda product ive had was the 03 (newly styled) Accord. Since then, theyve been from Ohio

lumpulus

I drove Integras and RSX/S up till I bought my RL...all are assembled in Japan.

mav238

Drove a Pontiac Sunbird in '85-'90, and decided against american built cars since then. For some reason, not sure why, the technology put into the american cars before 2000, was always way behind the japs and european cars. It is only recently, that you start seeing technologies like direct injection, VVT, CVT, stabilitrak, double wishbone suspension, electronic steering etc... in the american cars. The said technologies were in the jap and european cars even in the late nighties.

Question is, given the vast resources of the big three in the nineties, I am sure those technologies were not out of their "league", why did it not appear much earlier? In some cases, I have to say the Japs are much more innovative and persistent in their push for advancing car technologies.
For some reason, the Big Three seem contented to think the general masses do not know how to appreciate rapid advances in car technologies and thus no real imcentive to push for it. That was then.... now you see every GM, Ford and Chrysler product carrying technologies similar to that found in foreign makes.
Problem is, the Asian and european car makers, already has the advantage of a great headstart, and so their technologies has been (and is still constantly updated) refined way ahead of the Big Three.
That also brings about better quality in their products as well (reduce the time taken to learn their mistakes and correct them).

I still look at Japanese car products as being superior in quality over the americans... We also have to look at the way the Japanese thinks and functions, their mentality towards life in general... which is typically cultivated since young, to be the best, to achieve the best, to give their best...

mav238

True... but the quality of say Honda/Toyota/Suzuki etc...is not set by american standards, but rather the quality systems installed are exactly what they stipulate for their products throughout the world.

Basically, One company, but global harmonization of quality systems... That said, because cars are still in some aspect, built by human labour, some quality differences can be seen in cars built in the US, versus the same cars built in Japan. Like I said, the typical Japanese auto worker, thinks and functions very differently from a typical north american auto worker; the former being generally more efficient, focused in their quality and "get it right first time" working attitude.

bialkoni

The majority of Accords have been built in Ohio since 1984.

MMike1981

the 1st batch of re-designs (not sure about the 08's) seemed to alaways come from japan first

BleuM&M

XLR8R brought back memories for me this time! My dad served under Paul Tibbits when he commanded MacDill AFB, I went to school with his son and hung around their house a lot. Paul Tibbits was a great man. Unlike Gen Tibbits, my dad could never reconcile the ownership of a Japanese or German car. He encouraged me to buy American or British. When I finally went my own way, he grudgingly came to the conclusion that Japanese cars were superior in many ways, but he still stuck to his guns.

mav238

It is one thing to be "illogically" patriotic towards our own country and allow "history" to dictate our judgements, it is another to be objective in our perspective of things.
It is one thing for people to harbour prejudice towards the japanese for their war-time history, but another to go against facts that domestic car products have yet to compete with the Japanese made cars in terms of technology and quality.

But, if the Big three makes car products that consistently exhibit excellent reliability, quality and in touch with current technologies (or even pioneering them), I am sure the north american people would definitely start to change their perspective. To remove this stigma or stereotype, the big three have to start producing great cars consistently, meeting or exceeding japanese car quality.

As has been noted here, there was significant stereotyping of japanese products with baby-boomers (those from the WWII era), but the japs irrefutably proved their stuff in the cars they make, up to this day.

Mokos23

The Japanese cars in the 60s and 70s that were Made in Japan were basically junk and not as superior in build quality as the American cars were I read and my folks and grandparents told me as well.

They all bought American or German cars until my grand aunt bought a 1986 Accord and found that these Japanese cars were built to last. Then my folks followed suit and bought an 1988 Accord after years of owning a Pontiac, then Buick, and an Oldsmobile.

Since the 80s though that has changed and ever since then the situation has been reversed.

cwepruk

I personally don't care where a car is made. The things I care about are:

1. Does it suit my needs for what I need/want at the time?
2. Is it affordable and competitive with the competition
3. Is is likely to be high (or decent) quality and reliable.
4. In the case of the RDX, resale mattered as well.

When the big three or any other company starts caring about my bottom line, I'll care about theirs. In the mean time, I buy what is best for me.

lumpulus

That's ez to answer.....why innovate, when you can wrap yourself in the Flag knowing people will continue to buy your products for the simple reason it's "their patriotic duty" to do so, according to the ads I used to see. My brother sure believes them.

It's all about profit...how much has a Ford P/U really changed in the past 50 years?
Yet it cost up to ten times as much as it did in the 60s. Same ladder frame.

ThePlainsman

Amen.

lumpulus

It seems the auto industry is not the only "patriotic" "flag wrapper" that is in trouble...

http://www.cbs58.com/index.php?aid=1095

XLR8R

What a brush with history!

My dad saw Captain Tibbets occasionally in the Headquarters of the 97th Bomb Group at Polebrook AAF, England in the fall of 1942. He was already a rising star having led the first B-17 raid into France, attacking the Sotteville marshalling yards at Roven.

They only spoke a few times, but they were on a first name basis; he called my dad "Jim" and my dad called him "Captain".

My dad remembers when Tibbets "disappeared". They knew something was up, they just didn't know what.

MMike1981

repeat after me: "THIS IS OURRRRR COUNTRY" its exactly what our american car maker is relying on, that stupid, friiiiiggggging AWFUL HORRIBLE song, lol.

lumpulus

It's actually; "This is MY Country"

XLR8R

Yes, and the Chevrolet Silverado the ad is referring to, is built in Mexico!! (and, to be fair, Canada).

It is less the quality of product that disturbs me about GM as it is the deceitful marketing. Badge engineering is at it's essence, deceitful; the Chevy Uplander too common for ya? Try the Saturn Relay, or if you really want class, the Buick Terraza.

Is the 1950's corporate Organization Man still around? He who couldn't aspire to a Caddy because that was Senior Exec level, but didn't want to be taken for a new-hire in a Chevy, so he had to find the Olds or Buick that suited his pay grade.

GM touts the GXP versions of the Torrent and Solstice as faster than certain Porsches, then mentions in tiny little letters that they are referring to the base engine models of those Porsches. (Everything's faster than a 5400 lb V6 Cayenne!)

Now, GM is placing multi-page glossy inserts in Car and Driver, Road and Track, etc. that gush about the car, and read as if they are actual magazine acticles, when in fact they are a "special advertising supplement" as evidenced by the tiny notice somewhere on the page.

This is what GM thinks of our powers of discernment.....

mav238

It almost sounds like GM/Ford/Chrysler bashing... but the reality is, if these Big Three build cars that are truly outstanding in quality, reliability, technology, they wouldn't need to do all those "deceitful" marketing...

BMW, mercedes, Audi, are expensive, because of the badging... you can spend up to to $10,000 more for BMW than one of an equivalently equipped other make car like an Acura. I really don't think the production costs are vastly different... Question is, can someone build a really good, reliable, up to date technology car at a much less cost than say a BMW made one? Can GM, Ford, Chrysler do it? I think the possibility is a strong one... The newer GM made cars are evident of that... But their reliability/quality fit history still sucks... so unless the newer products prove their worth in the next 5-10years, the stigma in these Big Three products will always be there...

It requires a "remapping" of the thinking of the senior executives in these Big three,
A complete change of mindset, forget the "GLORIOUS" hey days of the 60s-80s. They must "open" up their eyes to what is really out there in the auto market today, and make cars that truly compete in quality, reliability and technology...

freezei

Very well said. I've been to different parts of Japan and I saw for myself the Jap's attitude towards their jobs. Everything from laying bricks to even non skill tasks like cleaning the floor had to be done exceptionally well.

The last 97 CR-V I had was made in Japan and it had 230,000 kms on it when I sold it. All it needed was oil change, timing belt (2x) and front brakes (2x). The person that bought it paid me top dollars and found it hard to believe that even the paint was original.

I now have 07 RDX with only 3800 kms on it and I'm already experiencing rattle inside the vehicle, the sunroof when it's opened, as well as the passenger's side rear view mirror. Mmmmmm.......